Saturday, April 4, 2009

Sex, Lies, and Submission

I just got done listening to Axe's "Masocast" with his friend Ayla. I'm hoping Axe and I can get together soon to tape our own thing. At the very least it will help him dispell the notion that he's only doing the interview thing to chat up dominant women. Sub-cred...that's what I'm offerin' Axe, sub-cred.

Anyway, Ayla sounded really super smart and very thoughtful as she talked about prodomming, meeting submissive men to play with, dealing with trolls and having a public orgasm. Yeowww! Most powerfully for me she provoked reflection early in the interview as she talked about the reasons why she gave up prodomming. Her number one reason was that she felt complicit in the lies of her married clients to their wives and children. She admitted to being totally judgemental about married submissive men who sessioned, served and were collared to prodommes in secret. This maso-inspired mendacity caused very real disdain. If a client asked for "humiliation" from the menu, she let him have it - right between the ... eh ... eyes. "What would your wife think if she saw you now?, she'd snarl."

Whether it is "cheating" to lie to your wife about seeing a prodomme has been talked to death on various boards. The subject inspires intense debate. I think it is flat out cheating but I nevertheless did it for almost 30 years. My wife does not know about "She-Who-Visits", this blog, my life on the Max Board, or any of my kinky friends. But I as I listened to Ayla, it really struck me that her guilt was the flip side of my, as Crimson said, pejorative treatment of "client".

For so many men who have deep urges to submit to a dominant woman, but whose life circumstance won't allow that urge to be a relatively open one, prodommes present a positive and healthy outlet. I can't imagine what I would have done with my overwhelming urges if I hadn't been able to session with the dommes I've seen. Ultimately, because I met an incredible prodomme who respected my marriage and protected hers as well, I was able to shed an awful lot of my legacy of shame and become proud to be a submissive man.** The question is, what does one do with all that newfound "subbie-pride".

Tara Sterling wrote me a wonderful email entitled "Phases, Transitions, Cycles" in which she urged me to go with the flow and not analyze too much. Such wonderful advice. I fear, however, that my current "phase" is one of reflection and rumination. But maybe both Ayla and I should just lighten up and go with the flow.

It's spring. There are flowers to smell, sunshine to chase and open toed sling backs to endlessly oogle. Hey, if it makes us happy, then why the hell are we so sad?

**The re-read sounds a little like client = legacy of shame. That's just me, not all or necessarily even most clients.


Subdued said...

Funny to read this post. I just downloaded the Masocast and listened to it while walking to pick up Chinese food. It was really weird listening to something kink-related while out in the "normal" world.

I'm going to try and post my thoughts about it somewhere -- maybe here, maybe at Max, maybe over at the Masocast page. I liked listening to Ayla and thought she seemed smart and cool -- even as I felt a tiny bit slapped down by her comments. For me they demand more than a "go with the flow" response... but I haven't figured out what that response is yet... More, I guess.

advochasty said...

I look forward to your response.

Here's good!! Here's good!!

I suppose Ayla provoked way more than just "go with the flow" in me too. Tara's advice just seemed to fit like an oaisis of simplicity after all the backflipping I've been doing lately on "clientness".

I think basic sexual need and the "outsider" nature of what we as submissive men want, not to mention its limited supply, justify an awful lot of what we may do in the role of clandestine client.

For years I went out of my way to be discrete, reasonable about not jeopardizing our finances, careful not to tell another soul ...

I was also upfront about my sexuality with my wife while we were dating and told her I had sessioned with prodommes. It was only when I later went back to sessioning while married that I lied.

Now that I'm not going to get "cured" and I've told her we need to deal with our lack of a sex life and my need for submission -- it will likely cost me my 20 year marriage.

Ayla was like what, 30 years old or so maybe. I'm often reminded of listening to an interview of the author Richard Price, who I like very much, in which he said something to the effect that stuff he was certain about in his 20's and 30's he's hopelessly confused about now in his 50's.

I feel that way alot.

advochasty said...

Then again, Tara may mean something altogether different when she says "go with the flow"!! ;-P

Her Majesty's Plaything said...

Hi Advo:

I'm baaaaaaaack! ;-)

Wow! That is fascinating about Ms. Ayla. I had the pleasure of meeting her during her brief sojourn at Rapture. She is pure dynamite! As it happens we had a conversation about this very subject. She once said to me in session that she thought the love between a Mistress and slave was a very special kind of love. I replied that I thought it was my favorite kind of love. Had I known at the time how she felt about married subs cheating on their wives I might have answered her differently! She later confessed that my answer had made her seriously want to hurt me! :-p She was very supportive when I announced on Max that I was ending my relationship with Mistress A. and devoting myself entirely to my Queen. The fact that Ms. Ayla felt strongly enough about this subject to leave professional domination reinforces my impression that she is a very genuine person who stands firm in her beliefs and lives by her convictions.

"Is visiting a Prodomme cheating?" My answers to this question have ranged from yes, to no, to maybe so, to yes but so what? I agree with you that if a sub cannot find satisfaction at home seeing a pro is probably the simplest solution and carries with it the least ramifications. Does the sub owe it to his family to "come clean" and leave them to follow his bliss? While certainly the more "honest" approach it's tough to argue that this is really the kindest solution where the wife and kids are concerned. Is the sub supposed to sublimate his desires and white knuckle it through life denying himself the satisfaction of his deepest desires? I would argue that this solution is downright impossible as any who have attempted it will probably attest to. Should the sub come clean with his wife about his desires and give her the opportunity to meet him halfway? Absolutely! But what if she refuses to capitulate, views his predilections as sick and disgusting or is simply not interested? Once the subject has been broached and a spouse has given "no" as her final answer I would argue that seeing a pro is the best solution. Is it cheating? Hell yes! But so what?

On the other hand this approach will probably involve lying unless the sub's wife is particularly open minded and can accept sharing her partners affections. Those spouses are very rare. In my opinion the act of lying creates distance between spouses and over time can eat away at the foundations of a marriage in much the same way hungry termites gnaw away at the foundations of a house. So lying and sneaking around is still far from the perfect solution.

This is one of those issues that becomes increasingly complex the more you look at it. There are no easy answers, no perfect solutions. At least not in my humble opinion.



advochasty said...

There are no easy answers, no perfect solutions. At least not in my humble opinion.

Come on, you go away on a nice, fancy dive vacation and you can't solve this little problem. I was completely counting on you to come up with an easy answer and perfect solution. ;-)

No doubt it is a complicated question. The most important thing is for someone to figure out what works for them. What works for any one person can change over time or morph and adapt based on life changes.

Now...about that perfect solution...

Her Majesty's Plaything said...

Oh what the heck! If the wife won't play go see a pro! No muss. No fuss. Damn the termites and full speed ahead! We men are all a bunch of dogs anyway. We subs are just more passive aggressive about it than our macho type A counterparts. I'm a monogamous slut! How about you? ;-)

The dive vacation was totally amazing btw! Saw lots of magnificent sea turtles, lovely delicate sea horses, groupers the size of taxi cabs, foxy nurse sharks that wanted to take my blood pressure, an octopus that looked like a shape shifting demon and a five foot barracuda hanging tough in the water like the Godfather of the entire reef community. The reef at Cozumel is absolutely spectacular. It boasts towering coral heads reminiscent of a living sculpture garden, soaring buttresses full of caves and swim-throughs and a sheer wall dropping into the blue abyss that will make you dizzy! Holy frijoles what a great time I had! What am I doing back here again? I can't quite seem to remember..... :-P


Anonymous said...

I found her to be an incredibly judgmental person, and a major turn off that gives pro doms a bad name.